How To Fast-track Your Professional Growth Without Sacrificing Your Personal Happiness With Terry B. McDougall

SPEAKERS

Terry McDougall, Peggie Kirkland

 Peggie Kirkland  00:04

Welcome to the Momma's Motivational Messages podcast, where women learn to stop putting themselves on the back burner and start paying attention to caring for themselves first, so they can be better for everyone else in their lives. I know you'll be inspired by the stories of resiliency and starting over, of health and self healing, of gaining clarity through journaling, of showing self-love through world travel, and the list goes on. I encourage you to relax and enjoy. I'm your host Peggie Kirkland ,PK. 

 Peggie Kirkland  00:46

Today we're welcoming to the show, Terry Boyle McDougall. She's an executive and career coach and CEO of Terry B. McDougal Coaching. Before Terry became a coach. She was a longtime corporate marketing executive. Terry is also the author of Winning The Game At Work, Career Happiness And Success On Your Wwn Terms, and the host of the Marketing Mambo podcast. Welcome to the show, Terry

 Terry McDougall  01:20

Peggie. It is great to be here. 

 Peggie Kirkland  01:23

Terry, I've mentioned briefly some of your professional accomplishments. And you will have an opportunity to expand on those accomplishments a little later. And also to tell us about your journey to where you are today. But first, what can you share about your background that would help my listening audience to get to know who Terry McDougal is, like, you know, where did you grow up? What's your educational background? How did you become an executive and career coach? All that good stuff.

 Terry McDougall  01:59

Okay, well, I grew up all over the place. When I was a kid, my dad had a job with the telephone company and the job that he had required our family to move a lot. When I, by the time I was 11 years old, we had lived in 40 different places. And that's 40. My goodness, yeah, he met now most of those places. We moved around before I started school. But once I started school, I went to a different school every year until I was in fifth grade. And, and that was in different states as well. His job, he worked on these, these construction crews, if you will, that were moved around to; they had a very large project, which was burying all of the long distance cable; my dad's like kind of a blue-collar guy. And so he worked on these. And when they get done with one construction project, they've moved them to the next town or next state to work on the next part of this big project. And so for until I was in second grade, our family lived in a trailer, like my dad would just hook it up to the back of the truck and we'd move on to the next town and get a place in a trailer park. And that's where we lived until he moved again. 

 Terry McDougall  03:22

Once I got into school, you know, eventually we moved into a townhouse. And then my my parents bought a house and then we moved to Delaware eventually when I was in fifth grade and we stayed there till I graduated from high school. I ended up going to college in Virginia. I studied economics, I really, I was really interested in advertising. That was kind of what my, my aspiration was when I got out of college. But I actually wasn't able to get any interviews with advertising agencies. I got my start in my career at a publishing company. I worked in the ad sales department supporting the sales staff. And then that was sort of, you know, my first foray into understanding how advertising and marketing works. And that got my foot on the path to working in marketing for the rest of my corporate career.

 Terry McDougall   04:23

When I was in my late 20s, I went back to school and I got an MBA. I eventually got a job. Working in financial services. I worked for two very large national banks over the course of about 21 years, starting out shortly after I got out of business school as a marketing manager at a bank in North Carolina. I worked there for nine and a half years and then got recruited to a bank that's here in Chicago where I live now. And with that move I moved into a leadership position, I was leading marketing for one of the businesses there. I was at that company for 12 years. And in the time I was there, I had four different roles. I led marketing for three different businesses. And then I also had a one year stint where I lead event-based marketing for the whole company. So we did tons, and it's a really large company with, like, 46,000 employees. And we did lots of events, hundreds of events every year, and I had about 30 people reporting to me doing planning and executing on all of those events. 

 Terry McDougall   05:35

But in 2017, I, I had been in a role there for a couple years that I, I actually didn't apply for the role, I didn't really want the role. But sometimes in the corporate world, you know, you'll get voluntold, that this is going to be the next job that you take. And I never from the beginning felt like it was a good fit. But you know, I was being a good corporate citizen, and I took the job, but I never was really happy in it. And it kind of led me to start looking at myself and my career and saying, Okay, I'm not feeling happy, like, what do I want to do? What's the next step for me? I interviewed with other companies, but honestly, I think I sort of, in some ways, maybe was outgrowing the marketing profession, I just, I'd have interviews for jobs that look like great jobs, but I'd go in the interview, and I just wouldn't get very excited about it. So that was just sort of telling me something that maybe I needed to do something different. And it led me, you know, back to the drawing board to say, Okay, what am I good at? And what do I like to do. 

 Terry McDougall  06:41

And I think I'm actually the oldest of four girls. So I'm the big sister. And I think even going back to childhood, I was always like a helper helping people with their problems, you know, helping to teach people, that kind of thing. And that's something that I've always enjoyed doing. And even as a marketing leader, I always thought it made a lot of sense to invest in coaching and mentoring for my staff, just, you know, if people felt more confident, and they were more ready to show up and do a good job, it just was, it was good for me, it was good for them, it was good for the company. So I started thinking like, well, maybe I should look at coaching. 

 Terry McDougall  07:21

And I did end up leaving my job there, I enrolled in a coach training program, which was about eight months between when I started it, and I got my certification. And I left my job in 2017, and signed up my first clients that year, but really, you know, in earnest got started with my business in 2018. So that's sort of like my path to becoming a coach. And I didn't mention this, but I did hire coaches a couple times in my career to help me get over hurdles that I ran into, in my career, and I knew I knew what they did. I knew how they could help. But from a personal standpoint, I'm married, I forgot three kids. I work the whole time when I was, you know, giving birth to my kids and raising them and everything my husband and I were, we're really partners in, in our parenting. And we we've had a lot of different combinations of how we made money together. Everything from dual income to dual entrepreneurs and everything in between.

 Peggie Kirkland  08:35

Wow, that's that's quite an interesting journey. And I know all about being voluntold in the corporate space. But I'm really curious about what you said, in the very beginning, when you said you lived in 40 different places, and not all in the same state, in four indifference sttes.

 Terry McDougall  08:57

 Yeah. 

 Peggie Kirkland  08:57

I'm very curious to know, how all of you know, during the period that you talked about, I think it was before second grade did you say?

 Terry McDougall   09:08

Yeah, I mean, we lived in a trailer and, you know, like moving around pretty frequently, especially before school started. You know, my parents made a concerted effort once I got into school to, for for our family to live in one place. Now sometimes my dad had to travel and he might be gone and only come home every other weekend. You know, he I remember one time he was working in New York City, and they were they were like, laying the cables through one of the big tunnels. And you know, he would go to New York and work there for two weeks, and then come home every other weekend. And just stay in a hotel, the company paid for all that.

 Peggie Kirkland  09:49

How did all of that moving, I don't know if you've ever really thought about it. But what impact do you think all of that moving has had on you as an individual, as you, you know, went to college, in the workforce, and in your personal life, have you made any connections between that, and your own your current life? 

 Terry McDougall  10:14

Yeah,absolutely. That made me extremely adaptable. And it also made me very, very good at going into situations and sizing up what was going on. Because that was a skill that I had to learn, you know, from my earliest days, right, when you're moving into a new neighborhood, or you're going to a different school, and you're the new kid, and you have to come in and learn, you know, learn the layout of the school and learn, like, who are the friendly kids who are the mean, kids in the classroom, you know, I was always being presented with these new situations that come up, come into and understand the dynamics of. So I think that that became sort of my superpower, which actually comes in really handy as a coach, you know, for me to sort of read between the lines and understand like, what somebody's not saying, or if they're describing a situation to me, for me to, to really think about, like, what else might be going on here.

 Peggie Kirkland  11:16

I like that you recognize that and call that your superpower. And so I wonder, in dealing with your own clients, how do you help them discover their superpower? So let me let me backtrack a little bit to the thought that I have in mind, which has to do with the fact that you help high achieving professionals, right, you help them to remove obstacles that get them stuck, so that they can enjoy more success in their in their lives and in their careers. So I'm wondering if that's linked to discovering what their superpower is? 

 Terry McDougall  12:01

Yeah. You know, I think that a lot of times people, I mean, if they're successful, they're usually using their superpower. But sometimes the things that can trip them up are that either they're using it and they don't value it very much. They just think, Oh, well, everybody can do this. Right? Like, there's nothing special about me.  Everybody can, you know, come in and organize, or everybody can drive a project to completion, under budget, and you know, on schedule; they don't value that about themselves. 

 Terry McDougall  12:34

Or sometimes they may, I always say that our greatest weakness is our greatest strength overused. And so it's very common, if we've used some skill to become to become successful, that if we're running into difficulty that we'll maybe double down on using that skill. It's, it's funny, because I was actually talking with a prospective client earlier today. And she's very goal-oriented. And she's very direct, which is very valuable. 

 Terry McDougall  13:07

I mean, you can't teach people to be goal oriented, you know, you can harness that if you're a manager, but you can't teach it. But sometimes people who are very goal-oriented will, you know, they may ruffle other people's feathers, because they're so direct, you know, and so sometimes just helping people understand like, okay, when do you use that superpower? And when do you consciously say, well, maybe I need to pick up a different tool in the situation. You know, and that's, that's kind of what I help people do is say, okay, you know, let's become aware of what your superpower is, and think about when do you use it, you know, when to use it, and to use it appropriately. 

Terry McDougall  13:52

And if there are some areas that need development, and then let's consciously identify what those are, and start working on this together. And, you know, it's funny because nobody likes to feel incompetent. And so that's a lot of times why we go to the thing that we're good at. But sometimes we need to learn new skills, and it can feel really awkward, you know, you think about like learning to ride a bike when you've never ridden a bike before and how scary it feels or learning how to swim like jumping in the deep end; it feels it feels scary, right to do that. 

Terry McDougall  14:26

And so I really try to help people reframe things so that it's not as scary and so that they take those little baby you know, make it safe for them to take the baby steps and start doing that thing that feels uncomfortable. So that eventually it becomes another thing that they are competent at, and that they can be really intentional about. Okay, I'm going to I'm going to have this difficult conversation. You know, maybe I didn't feel comfortable doing that; maybe in the past I avoided having conversations that really needed to be had  because I felt uncomfortable doing that. But we're, you know, one of the things I work with people on a lot is like learning how to delegate, if somebody has been a high-performing individual contributor, they know that they can depend on themselves. But they don't always know if they can depend on somebody else. So a lot of times when people move into supervisory positions, that they may not delegate as much as they should. 

Terry McDougall  14:26

And so like teaching people to say like, Okay, well, how do you break down your ability to do this, so that you can teach it to somebody else? And you know, you can provide the right amount of support until that person is ready. So for example, like going back to the riding the bike, right? Like, how do you keep the training wheels on for long enough, so that they're comfortable, and then you take the training wheels off, but you still keep an eye on them, you know, so to make sure that they don't crash and burn. But once once, they can ride around the block a few times, and then you're like, Okay, you can go out and ride your bike. But you know, those are just some of the things that I see. You know, people that are really competent, and they know how to do things themselves, like how do they elevate to that next level, and start to leverage people around them more fully, so that they get the full potential out of people that they're working with,

Peggie Kirkland  16:19

You know, you mentioned, being uncomfortable about using or learning new skills, but doing them anyway. And it reminds me of, I'm doing a season of affirmations for my podcast right now, and the one that I did today had to do with learning new skills. I am learning the affirmation had to do, as I said, with learning and developing new skills. And I shared in that affirmation my own my own growth. I remember I mean, I'm dating myself here, when I talk about writing on the computer using word processing software, that when that became available, well, it was something new. And I, as a writer, had to have the perfectly sharpened pencil, or the perfect ballpoint pen with the right point, the perfect notepad. And then I would write everything that I needed to write in the notepad. And then I would transfer it to the computer and do it all over again, because I was not comfortable yet, with going directly to the computer, and doing my writing there. So that was a skill that I had to learn because it was, it was something that was brand new. And I know any millennials who are listening to this are going "What?" That sounds crazy. And some Gen Xers as well, I'm sure.

Terry McDougall  17:54

Yeah, yeah.

Peggie Kirkland  17:55

But you know, it's it just goes back to what you're saying about learning those new skills. And you talk about being intentional, as well. And the fact that new supervisors have problems delegating, and I think that when I think about my listening audience, and where they are, because Gen X women are on their way up the corporate ladder, very close to the top, if not already there. And they do end up having those supervisory positions. And it's a new world for them. And like you say, when you're in that, as I've experienced, when you're in that position, you want to make sure that everything is done just right, because you were the one who was you know, doing it before, and you knew exactly how it should be. And it's very hard to let go of the reins. You say that you hired coaches, when you were in similar positions to help you do you find that people in those positions are open to coaches? Do they even think about it? Or are they stuck in I'm the best person to get it done the way I need it to be done.

Terry McDougall  19:20

I mean, I think most of the time when people seek out coaching, it's because they've tried a lot of things, and it's not working; you know, things that worked for them in the past aren't working anymore. And I always say like what got you here is not going to get you there. And maybe I can tell the story in a few minutes. But that's when I first hired a coach is that I was looking to get promoted and I didn't know what to do differently, you know, to to show up like a leader. But sometimes people just seek coaching because they've been told by somebody at their company like, Okay, you're talented, but you've run up against an obstacle here. And so far what you're doing isn't working. So why don't you work with somebody to help you maybe expand your options of, or develop skills so that you can address the challenges more effectively. 

Terry McDougall  23:57

Sometimes people just, you know, they've been trying at something for a long time, and they're just frustrated. And so they look for somebody to help them. And there are a lot of really common patterns that show up and especially, you know, with high achieving people, because most of the time, if they're not getting the goal, if they're not reaching the goal that they want, they will double down on what's worked for them in the past. So they will work harder, they will do more, they will take on more projects. And a lot of times that just exacerbates the issue. 

Terry McDougall  23:57

Because especially if they've moved into a leadership position, you know, you can't do more of other people's work, right? If you've moved into a higher level position, you can't jump in and, and help you know, 10 or 20 people that are on your team directly, right. You can't go in and bolster them. You really have to learn new skills around like, how do I set expectations? How do I make sure that I have the right people in the right place? places? How do I build systems? So things that are things are repeatable? How do I make sure that people are trained to meet the expectations? And, you know, you mentioned earlier that, you know, somebody has been doing something and they've done it their way and it works for them? That, that when they move into a supervisory position, they may try to make the person that they're delegating it to do it exactly the way that they did it. And that, you know, nobody likes to be micromanaged, right that for somebody, maybe they process or they work differently. And so, like what worked for me is not necessarily going to work for them. 

And so, as a leader, it's like, how do you elevate, put the guardrails in place, be clear with that person about like, Okay, what what's the goal? And what's the expectation of, you know, what it looks like when the goal has been accomplished. And then, you know, kind of make sure they're going in the right direction, but let them have some ownership over those activities. And you know, one of the things that's funny is, I had trouble delegating when I first was a manager too. It's not something that you generally are taught but when I did learn to get delegate, one of the huge rewards is that very often you know, after For a period of time, whoever I delegated the task to was doing it better and quicker than I ever did it, they may be caught came up with a whole new system for doing things better. And it's, it's really cool to be able to provide that opportunity to people. And, you know, it's great for them because they feel like they've really accomplished something. 

But it's great for me too, because then that just gives us a system that, you know, when that when that person gets promoted, or moves on that somebody else can come in and be like, oh, okay, this is an even better way of doing this.mean, one of the things that I discovered when I got out of school, I mean, I was a good student in school. And I just figured that when I got into the workplace, that all I needed to do was just, you know, keep my head down, be quiet, do my work, and it would be noticed, and I would naturally be promoted, much like in school, right? Like you get done with 10th grade and they promote you to 11th grade. As long as you did all your work and you got good enough grades, they promote you to the next grade. And I just thought what is that how it works in the workplace. And it's really not, it's, you know, you're you're there to provide value. 

 Terry McDougall  24:28

You know, usually your boss has a lot of different people reporting to them. People are often doing different types of work. It can be very easy to focus just on the task. But we really need to understand like, why are we there? Why are we at work, right? We're there to create value and the way that you create value in a for profit businesses, that you're helping them make money, save money or reduce risk. Now, obviously, we're not all in sales or in, you know, regulatory compliance or something like that. That's directly going To make money or, you know, reduce risk, but if we can think about like, why am I here? How am I contributing to one of these things, right, and then we can sort of provide more value for the organization, like maybe go to your boss and say, You know what, I think that we could streamline this process. And if we do that, that's actually going to save us money. That's how you kind of move ahead. 

 Terry McDougall  25:25

And, and I suppose the reason why I look at work as a game is because we can very naively go into work and be like, I just show up, and I work here for eight hours, and I get a paycheck every two weeks. And, and that's that, and you can do that lots of people do that, but you're not really going to, you know, when, unless you develop a strategy, and you start looking at how do I add more value? You know, sort of like if you're, if you're playing a game, and you you know, roll a higher number in the on the dice, you're going to move forward more spaces on the game board. Right? And so it's like, how do you multiply the, the effort that you're putting in so that you're creating more value? So that's just that's just one aspect of like, why I call it a game. But in the book, I talk about lots of different, you know, ways to think about what's going on around you hope that answered your question, Peggy.

Peggie Kirkland  26:20

Yes, it did. I know you said you had a story to share. I don't know if you still remember. Yeah, I

Terry McDougall  26:26

I'd be happy to share my story. So I mean, it's actually it's actually illustrates, like how I was not looking at work as a game. And it really kind of opened my eyes. For a few years, I was working in marketing for a division of a large bank. And I was sort of the number two person in the department. I was, I'd say, like the right hand person to the head of marketing for that division. And I was involved a lot in developing strategy. And, you know, he relied on me very heavily for like communications within the organization. And he ended up leaving the company. And I thought to myself, Well, I think I'm ready to step into that role. And so I applied for the job.

 Terry McDougall  27:12

 I got through the first round of interviews with HR. And then the second round of interviews was a panel interview with several marketing colleagues who actually were in a different city. And I didn't really do a lot to prepare for the interview, I wasn't thinking about how I add added value. I'd worked there for about eight years. And I thought people know what I do people know, I'm doing a good job. You know, I just thought everybody saw me the way I saw myself. And so I didn't do anything to prepare for the interview. And I went into the interview, and I bombed, I just got really nervous. And I, you know, I just hadn't thought about how do I talk about myself? And the value that I add for an in why me, you know, why should I send to this leadership role? And so I was eliminated from the, the candidacy, and it hurt. Because I really, I actually had kind of stepped up and was the intron, official interim person, you know, I was calling the staff meetings and interacting with people in the business and everything. But I was eliminated from the role and so wasn't much that I felt like I could do about it. 

 Terry McDougall  28:18

But I said, you know, what, I don't want to, I don't, obviously, I have a limit limiting issue here. So I hired a coach, actually, you know, this was back in the early 2000s. And I remember thinking, like, Oh, I think there's something called like a career coach like that coaches just weren't as prevalent, you know, 20 years ago. Yes. And, but I found somebody in my town who did coaching and I worked with her for a few months, and she helped me become more confident talking about myself, she helped me really look at myself and say, How do I add value, she helped me mentally promote myself. So that I showed up and I, I was acting like a leader, I went out and bought new clothes, I kind of gave myself a makeover so that I showed up looking like I belong at that next level. Now, I didn't think that it was gonna pay off. But funny enough, or I didn't think it was gonna pay off immediately. But funny enough, they went through the whole interviewing process and the person that they offer that job to turn it down, when they didn't have a secondary candidate. 

 Terry McDougall  29:19

So they started the process all over again. And so I reapplied, you know, and given all my new newfound skills and confidence, and this time I made it all the way to the final interview is me and an external candidate. It was another panel interview, but it was the CEO of the division and his two top lieutenants. And I remember what I was wearing, I was like, I was in this like, big executive board room, and I was very confident. Unfortunately, I did not get the offer. They offered it to the external candidates. And no, I was, I was disappointed, but I felt much better this time because I knew that I played to win. And I just, you know, I got beat out by somebody that they felt would be a better candidate. The first time I was, I wasn't playing to win. But the second time I was. 

Terry McDougall  30:09

 But interestingly enough, the day I found out that I did not get the job, I came back from lunch. And there was a voicemail on my phone, from an executive recruiter. Within three to four months, I had two job offers, and I was actively interviewing for a third job. And I ended up taking one of those jobs. And it moved me here to Chicago, it moved me I came in and I headed marketing for the investment bank of a bank here in Chicago. And by the end of that year, I doubled my compensation. So it worked out.

Peggie Kirkland  30:46

I think those are valuable lessons that you've mentioned there. Because I think oftentimes, when women at a certain level are stuck, they never think about hiring a coach, even though I know it's more popular today, I think people still don't think about hiring a coach or actually understand the value that a coach could bring to that particular situation. So I'm glad that you sort of highlighted that again. And, yes,

Terry McDougall  31:19

Yeah, can I can I just,  you know, speak to that just a little bit. I am a very frugal value oriented person. And I remember when I spoke with that coach, and she told me what she charged, it's actually, it's actually much less than what I charged now. But it would seem like a lot of money. And I just, you know, I was up against this wall; it was so painful to have, you know, failed that I didn't want that to happen again. So I bit the bullet, and I was like, Okay, I'm gonna invest in this. 

Terry McDougall  31:28

And when I think back about the return on that investment, which was maybe a couple thousand to work with her over the course of a couple months, for me to double my salary by the end of the first year, and then work at that company at that level and more over 12 years, that return on the investment is huge. You know, and I think that it's important to think of it that way, you know, that sometimes we do need to just bet on ourselves, and really believe that what we want as possible if we get the right support. And I'm so thankful that I that I did that;it really was a huge pivot point in my life, not just my career.

Peggie Kirkland  32:35

And I'm very glad that you expanded on that. Thank you, because I think my listeners are really getting a lot of value from that. And the fact that you said it even expanded beyond your career, the impact. It brings me to my to my next question, which really has to do with your family. You said you have three children, you were working, your husband was working you were doing, you know, all of the things that families do. And one of the things that I like to focus on is self-care for  Gen X women because, you know, with all of the things that are going on, women tend to put themselves on the backburner. I'm curious to know whether the skills that you learned in terms of making your value seen on the work front, whether those skills, whether you applied, any of those or  thought you should and didn't on the home front.?

Terry McDougall  33:43

Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. And I, have three children, like I said, in my first two were born within two years, less than two years. And I was working full time. And you know, the first child, we, you know, my husband and I were both working, and we were able to manage that; that was fine. But having a toddler and an infant and working full time, I hit a wall because I am a very driven person. I had very high expectations of myself, I can remember even being at home during the maternity leave with my second child and lamenting the fact that I couldn't keep up with, you know, keeping house clean and getting all the laundry done and caring for these children. And, you know, and I was really so hard on myself. 

Terry McDougall  34:34

I remember my husband saying like, look, your job is to keep them alive. Okay, don't worry about anything else. But I still, I really, I really got to a point where I think I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. And I sought professional help. I went to, I got a therapist, but what I recognized was that I needed to learn how to bend that I needed to prioritize. It was the first time in my life that I wasn't able to do everything that I set my mind to, at the, at the excellent level. And that was a really important turning point in my life to, to just say to myself, like, you're good enough, you know, you can choose the things you focus your energy on, you know, it doesn't say anything bad about you, if you've got dust bunnies under the bed, you know, and then eventually, we did hire a cleaning person that came every two weeks, and that that took a huge weight off of my shoulders, because I used to get angry, like, when I looked around the house, I'd be so busy. And I looked around the house and be like, Oh, my gosh, you know, the living room rug needs to be vacuumed. And I would think to myself, like, and I have to do that. 

Terry McDougall  35:46

And, and then after we got the cleaning person, if I saw that, it just be like, Oh, good, they're coming in two days, I don't need to worry about that. And, and I think sometimes just valuing ourselves enough to say, you know, my job is not to do everything, my job is to make sure things get done. And that's the same thing I say about when people move to, you know, leadership positions is their job is not to do everything. Their job is to make sure things get done. And you can do that in many different ways. You know, you can delegate you can pay, gosh, I wish they'd had Instacart whenever I was a young mother, right? 

Peggie Kirkland  36:24

I agree. 

Terry McDougall  36:25

Going to the grocery store with a toddler and a baby was a nightmare. 

Peggie Kirkland  36:30

Yeah, yeah. I agree. You don't have to do everything. Well, Terry, we're coming to the end of our interview, sadly. But I just wanted to ask you, what is one thing you want listeners to know and remember, from our time here together, if they don't recall anything else, what is one thing you want them to remember?

Terry McDougall  36:53

What I want them to remember is that they are worthy of being happy. Everybody is sent here to Earth with special gifts that only each individual possesses. And value that that is what makes you special. You know, we were talking earlier about your superpowers, like, know that you're worthy of being happy. And find that place where you can find things that you're good at, and you like to do and believe that it's possible for you to find that space where you can be your authentic self. You know, keep looking for it. It's there, it's there. And you know, you've got what it takes to make it happen for yourself.

Peggie Kirkland  37:39

I can't think of a better note on which to end, Terry, it's been awesome having you on the show. Where can listeners find you if they want to reach out to you for your services or to be able to get your book? 

Terry McDougall  37:55

Well, people can reach out to me at Terry B McDougall com, that's my website, and if people want to check out my book, I have a couple of free chapters out there that you can read and download. If you want to look more into my book, it's available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and it's called Winning The Game Of Work, Career Happiness And Success On Your Own Terms. And then if there are any marketing nerds out there, like me, I worked many years in marketing, and I still love to keep a toe in that world. I have a podcast, which is called Marketing Mambo. And it's available on all of the platforms and also at its website marketing. Mambo.net. I talked to lots of really interesting people about , who work in and around the whole world of marketing.

Peggie Kirkland  38:41

That's terrific. And all of this information will be listed in the show notes so that listeners will have easy access to all of that. So Terry, thank you so much for taking the time to share your experiences on the professional front and at home with us. It's been an absolute pleasure

Terry McDougall  39:04

Peggie it's been a pleasure talking with you. Thanks for having me.

Peggie Kirkland  39:11

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